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Re: [ossig] OSS from ground zero



If the developer decided to close the source, let it
be. It is not right to force people to do anything
they do not want.

And yes, too many unix based tech gone out of date.
but at times it seems like it, but came back a few
years later, improved.

Some projects maybe documentless. If it works fine
with u, just go ahead. It cost time to learn. But many
do not have such luxury. if u share, others get to
follow faster. if not, if they can do the same as u.
if not, too bad.

Focus on get this little page up, should be on more on
the few which are commonly used. Just enough to get
people started with OSS.

At the moment I am just interested to look for people
in this mailing list to comment of this work to share
and point to resources which they find useful to them
and think that resources can help others, put it on a
page and host. 

cheers ^_^ 

--- Seah Hong Yee <hongyee@polyscientific.com.my>
wrote:
> On Tuesday 15 June 2004 4:51 pm, Poh Yang Ming
> wrote:
> > I do agree that close source project do close
> down,
> > where funds/income/critical mass is not
> > enough/feasible. That is also why opensource is
> > relatively better, that when the project is put
> off,
> > if there is a need for it, whoever needs it got to
> > develop from there without start coding from
> blank.
> >
> 
> 
> Someone should write to PalmSource and ask them to
> opensource BeOS. 
> But this situation is exactly what you are talking
> about, BeOS user have to 
> start from scratch to develop another BeOS like OS,
> and there's already 4 
> similar projects with different goal and
> architecture. 
> 
> > Improved/alternative version should also replace
> the
> > old abandon ones. Heard of orphan codes? kesian,
> > right?
> 
> 
> Yeah, I got one running on my production server
> written by a Japanese coder 
> with 0 documentation and 0 comments on his code. I
> fiddled with it for some 
> time with someone else form the user community and
> finally decided that it is 
> time to move on and live without it. 
> >
> > I may not be great in programming. But I am
> willing to
> > learn, and guided by my own needs. I trust so with
> > others. many turned away by the gap to acquire the
> > knowledge to develop.
> >
> > There should be some people with good knowledge to
> > screen some of the documentation and classify the
> > document strength accordingly. It is not easy too.
> >
> > at times i dun understand why emacs and vi users
> tend
> > to "kill" each other. I can use both, they cannot
> meh?
> > I dun do LaTeX. But part of the things I like to
> learn
> > someday.
> 
> no reason or what-so-ever to do that.  Same reason
> why no one should really be 
> bother with Windows VS Linux Vs BSD thing. It is a
> complete waste of time. As 
> I often tell people who asked me to join their
> religion over the years, 
> worship your own God/gods but don't ask me to do the
> same. 
> 
> > no doubt websearch, "googled" the info, i can get
> it,
> > but may not be the best there is. I suppose there
> are
> > many like me too. help appreciated. :D
> 
> Like you say, it might be good if you are willing to
> start some documentation 
> if some documentation does not exist, great for
> yourself in the process also 
> learn something.  
> 
> One thing you might want to consider as I often find
> myself into is, sometimes 
> a piece of software or documentation no longer
> up-to-date simply because it 
> is obsolete. Few example I can give you is Linux
> Chinese Language HOWTO, 
> Linux AMD automounter, and Linux NIS+. 
> 
> The first one is because the chinese input method
> has change on linux, AMD is 
> sitll in-use in BSDs but is being replaced by autofs
> in Linux and NIS+ is 
> because SuSE who championed it dropped it and no one
> else find it interesting 
> to implement it when you can use LDAP to do the
> samething even better and 
> more secure. 
> 
> One of the thing you might find is documentation is
> sometimes 
> distribution-specific and the best thing for you to
> do is to join your 
> respective distribution community.  Personally, I
> like Mandrake's community 
> there's generally plenty of documentation around. I
> believe the same is going 
> on with debian. 
> 
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> >
> > --- Seah Hong Yee <hongyee@polyscientific.com.my>
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > That is the challenge. At time it is as if the
> > >
> > > work
> > >
> > > > will die someday. is the same haunts every OSS
> > > > project? Won't there be baton passing? That is
> > >
> > > basis
> > >
> > > > many users are worried about. What will happen
> if
> > >
> > > the
> > >
> > > > project stops?
> > >
> > > 	I think this pretty much depends on individual
> > > project. Some project tend of
> > > have a centralize documentation.  OpenBSD for
> > > example has a good one, so is
> > > postgresql. Problem with opensource is, there's
> > > usually no single website
> > > that offer some good documentation while some
> > > project don't.  Language
> > > problem also tend to be one. A number of
> Japanese
> > > and Russian projects ended
> > > up no one outside their native country uses them
> > > because there are very
> > > little or not english language documentation
> > > available. I think it all
> > > depends on critical mass of the development and
> user
> > > community.   When
> > > projects stop and they do stop quite often, I
> think
> > > the best thing for a user
> > > is to move on. It is not like close-source world
> > > where project don't stop or
> > > company don't go bankrupt.  Just remember Lotus
> 123,
> > > Wordstar, ultrix... what
> > > would you do if Bill Gates adopt some obscure
> > > religion and decided that
> > > computer is bad and close down microsoft and
> erase
> > > all the source code from
> > > their server?
> > >
> > > > > Haha, have fun with this. Its not easy
> reading
> > > > > production code and documenting it
> > > >
> > > > Yes, that is why M$ is winning, and not giving
> the
> > > > codes. I think that is also true, not many
> read
> > >
> > > the
> > >
> > > > source codes. Instead of saying it is not easy
> > >
> > > reading
> > >
> > > > production codes and documenting it, do u know
> the
> > > > current best practice which u would recommend?
> > > >
> > > > Too many OSS developers FUD. Instead we should
> do
> > > > something about it to encourage people to
> learn,
> > > > develop and share, instead of parading ego,
> > >
> > > accussing
> > >
> > > > others of incompetence.
> > > >
> > > > I know one C++ programmer who did just that.
> He
> > >
> > > said
> > >
> > > > C++ is better than java in crossplatform
> software
> > > > development. When I approach him about Qt/KDE,
> > > > wxwidgets, he told me I should go an learn on
> my
> > >
> > > own,
> > >
> > > > he knows nothing about it. which instead, he
> > >
> > > should
> > >
> > > > say, he got his own proprietory framework, or
> some
> > > > projects based on C++ which is crossplatform,
> or
> > >
> > > what
> > >
> > > > is needed to learn before u get to do C++
> > >
> > > developed
> > >
> > > > app go platform independent... hmmm....
> > > >
> > > > I m currently working on wxwidgets. been
> painful.
> > > >
> > > :D
> > > :
> > > > But the dynamic nature of software
> development, is
> > > > very hard to track. Tracing letters/email
> chain is
> > >
> > > a
> > >
> > > > way to get information, but not easy. yet at
> time
> > >
> > > can
> > >
> > > > be painful...
> > > >
> > > > However, having a list like below(just for an
> > > > illustration, dun u think it helps? :
> > > > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > > Tools:
> > > >   Apache webserver:
> > > >
> > > >   Tomcat:
> > > >
> > > >   Samba:
> > > >    recommended book:
> > > >     Samba 3 by Example, by John Terpstra
> > > >
> > > > Programming:
> > > >
> > > > Language:
> > > >   Assembly:
> > > >
> > > >   C/C++:
> > > >     Some comment...
> > > >
> > > >     Reference site:
> > > >       http://www.cprogramming.com/ - best for
> ....
> > > >
> > > >   Python:
> > > >     Some Comment...
> > > >
> > > >     Reference site:
> > > >    
> http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld/
> > > >     http://www.diveintopython.org/
> > > >
> > > >   PHP:
> > > >     Platform independent Serversite scripting,
> > > > typically hosted with Apache Webserver and
> mysql
> > > > database server.
> > > >
> > > >     Official Site:
> > > >     http://www.php.net
> > > >
> > > >     Tools:
> > > >     http://devphp.sourceforge.net/
> > > >
> > > >     Tutorial:
> > > >     site one
> > > >     site two
> > > >
> > > >     Recommended Books:
> > > >
> > > >     For beginers:
> > > >     PHP in easy steps by Mike McGrath
> > > > http://www.ineasysteps.com/books/?1840782072 -
> > > > recommended by Poh
> > > >     Comment: This book is reasonably priced,
> to
> > >
> > > get
> > >
> > > > one started to do php-mysql web development.
> > > > Installation included for Windows XP, but
> > > > preconfigured in most linux distro (List:
> > >
> > > Fedora,...
> > >
> > > > ).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > OSes
> > > >
> > > > Unix/Linux
> > > > Recommended reference:
> > > >   http://www.tldp.org/ - recommended by ...
> > > >
> > > > FreeBSD:
> > > >   ISO:
> > > >
> > > >   For Developers:
> >
> >
>
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/arch-handbook/
> >
> > > > - recommended by ...
> >
> >
>
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/developers-handbook/
> >
> > > > - recommended by ...
> > > >
> > > > Redhat/Fedora:
> > > >   Some Comment.. some free OS
> > > >   commercially sponsored.
> > > >   ....
> > > >
> > > >   Recent Releases:
> > > >     Fedora Core 2 - http://fedora.redhat.com/
> > > >     ISO(please select a local mirror):
> >
> >
>
http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/2/
> >
> > > >     Installation:
> > > >       Recommended: CD, burned from ISO images
> > > > downloaded.
> > > >       Alternative: ....
> > > >
> > > >   Recommended Reference:
> > > >     http://fedorafaq.org/
> > >
> > >
> http://fedoraguide.org/fc2/fc2beginnersguide.html
> > >
> > > >     Red Hat 9 Bibile By Negus - recommended By
> Poh
> > > >        This books has the neccesarry basic to
> get
> > >
> > > one
> > >
> > > > to begin with.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Recommended BLOGs
> > > >
> > > > http://myoss.bytebot.net/ - focus on ...
> >
> >
>
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > > > Some of those are recall off hand, some are
> taken
> > >
> > > from
> > >
> > > > the mails. I am sure more details can be scope
> > >
> > > down
> > >
> > > > with articles and correction.
> > > >
> > > > I think this list should be hosted and edited
> by
> > >
> > > the
> > >
> > > > community somewhere. No doubt there are
> > >
> > > competition
> > >
> > > > among the OSS projects too. But at the least
> the
> > >
> > > gap
> > >
> > > > of learning is reduced to many. It is neither
> > > > spoonfeed, as whoever interested will still
> have
> > >
> > > to
> > >
> > > > pull it down or get the right link to begin
> learn.
> > >
> > > dun
> > >
> > > > let users/developers trashing around the bush
> and
> > > > wasting time.
> > > >
> > > > There should be a master list of OSS projects.
> > > > sourceforge is one good place, but not all OSS
> > >
> > > project
> > >
> > > > are there. It will be great if there are
> pointers
> > >
> > > by
> > >
> > > > community to draft up the best there is about
> > >
> > > those
> > >
> > > > project and their uses, and vote the best
> > >
> > > practices so
> > >
> > > > that others can jointly learn.
> > > >
> > > > blogs is no doubt a good place to learn, and
> an up
> > > > coming trend. however, how lasting are they?
> can
> > >
> > > blogs
> > >
> > > > last longer than the author's life?
> > > >
> > > > Dun u all think keeping knowledge exclusive
> and
> > > > secluded is by nature proprietory too??
> > > >
> > > > But been using a similar list on my computer
> and
> > >
> > > keep
> > >
> > > > it updated as i needed it. a few cases people
> come
> > >
> > > to
> > >
> > > > me about programming perl, so i got a few
> notes on
> > >
> > > the
> > >
> > > > basic, past personal experiences, books and
> codes,
> > > > pass it to them. Even then onely 1/5 got
> through.
> > >
> > > Hard
> > >
> > > > eh??!?
> > > >
> > > > The time I spend on relearning is alot. At
> times i
> > >
> > > can
> > >
> > > > get way out of date on certain technology, it
> > >
> > > takes
> > >
> > > > times to catch up.
> > > >
> > > > I m very serious in getting this list hosted
> at
> > >
> > > OOSIG.
> > >
> > > > I c a need of it for all ( home users -
> developers
> > > > included). Let the world watch. Correct all
> the
> > > > mistakes there is(including grammar), please.
> > > >
> > > > oh yeah, on assembly language, who know the
> best
> > > > resource there is to learn??
> > > >
> > > > any better than this?
> > > > http://webster.cs.ucr.edu/
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > ^_^
> > > >
> > > > Poh
> > > >
> > > > --- Colin Charles <byte@aeon.com.my> wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 12:49, Poh Yang Ming
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > Khairil (and to all),
> > > > > >
> > > > > > u r working on setting up a resource on
> it?
> > >
> > > Great!
> > >
> > > > > How
> > > > >
> > > > > > can I join? I think OSS is in need of
> these.
> > >
> > > It
> > >
> > > > > can
> > > > >
> > > > > > really helps, as unlike commercial
> softwares,
> > > > > > resources in documentation on OSS is
> somewhat
> > > > >
> > > > > lacking.
> > > > >
> > > > > While we're working on resources, please be
> > >
> > > warned
> > >
> > > > > about creating a
> > > > > resource such as:
> > >
> > >
> http://fedoraguide.org/fc2/fc2beginnersguide.html
> > >
> > > > > Not that I post this to discourage you or
> the
> > >
> > > author
> > >
> > > > > of that guide, but
> > > > > please, get the facts straight, and get the
> > >
> > > English
> > >
> > > > > right - the world is
> > > > > watching
> > > > >
> > > > > For that article in particular, it doesn't
> > >
> > > mention
> > >
> > > > > the package
> > > > > management way of doing things - yes its
> step by
> > > > > step, but packages
> > > > > change versions regularly, can one person
> > >
> > > maintain
> > >
> > > > > that? Probably not
> > > > >
> > > > > Plus, if you really wanted to show beginners
> > >
> > > what to
> > >
> > > > > do, it would be the
> > > > > "correct" way, not "download a gazillion
> > >
> > > packages"
> > >
> > > > > and do it manually -
> > > > > it makes the OS sound retarded ("gee,
> Windows I
> > >
> > > just
> > >
> > > > > double click and do
> > > > > it wan, how come this Linux must get 10
> packages
> > > > > just to play movies wan
> > > > > ar?"; to which a response should just be:
> > >
> > > apt-get
> > >
> > > > > install mplayer/yum
> > > > > install mplayer)
> > > > >
> > > > > Repository mixing, oh gosh, bad bad idea.
> This
> > > > > document sets newbies
> > > > > backward, more than anything
> > > > >
> > > > > > In essense, gound zero means never use
> > >
> > > computer
> > >
> > > > > b4,
> > > > >
> > > > > > yet hv access to resources to learn. I
> know it
> > >
> > > is
> > >
> > > > > kind
> > > > >
> > > > > > of ironic, when u got the unit and the
> setup
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > > > > installation of the computer, is
> exclusively
> > >
> > > in
> > >
> > > > > the
> > > > >
> > > > > > form of CD-ROM.... LOL...
> > > > >
> > > > > Sounds like ICDL/ECDL materials are required
> for
> > > > > this sort of thing...
> > > > >
> > > > > > And naturally, ppl hv different needs.
> some
> > >
> > > doing
> > >
> > > > > this
> > > > >
> > > > > > and that. too often i c people demand IT
> pro
> > >
> > > to
> > >
> > > > > know
> > > > >
> > > > > > everything end to end. With so many
> project
> > >
> > > forked
> > >
> > > > > out
> > > > >
> > > > > > it is pretty hard to work with. RealPlayer
> for
> > > > > > example. u got so many version which work
> > > > >
> > > > > differently
> > > > >
> > > > > > on different linux distro. how u are to
> know
> > >
> > > if u
> > >
> > > > > > needed this and that with pages describing
> > > > >
> > > > > personal
> > > > >
> > > > > > experience litters the internet, which is
> so
> > >
> > > small
> > >
> > > > > it
> > > > >
> > > > > > can't surface as the first few in the
> search?
> > > > >
> > > > > There are trackers for packages - and tools
> like
> > > > > apt-get/yum on Linux,
> > > > > or FreeBSD's ports, work wonders
> > > > >
> > > > > > too many time, i seen people google and
> found
> > > > >
> > > > > nothing
> > > > >
> > > > > > and equates that to nothing on it exist.
> > > > >
> > > > > Really? Google generally gives *excellent*
> > >
> > > results
> > >
> > > > > > out of 100 OSS users, the developers will
> be
> > >
> > > just
> > >
> > > > > a
> > > > >
> > > > > > small subset of it. with a resource to
> help
> > >
> > > guide
> > >
> > > > > > interested parties to develop more on it
> will
> > >
> > > be a
> > >
> > > > > > good start to get more people involved,
> even
> > >
> > > if it
> > >
> > > > > is
> > > > >
> > > > > > inefficient at first (perhaps w/o no
> assembly
> > > > > > language).
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, keep in mind that if you put the "made
> in
> > > > > malaysia" label on
> > > > > things, you should attempt to make it of
> > > > > international standards and
> > > > > usability
> > > > >
> > > > > > what is needed is simple:
> > > > > > 3 major part.
> > > > > > 1. on what it is (i.e. samba), and what it
> is
> > >
> > > use
> > >
> > > > > for
> > > > >
> > > > > > (i.e. file server).
> > > > >
> > > > > What are the howto's at www.tldp.org for?
> > > > >
> > > > > (ok, digressing... if you're looking for
> > >
> > > Samba-ness,
> > >
> > > > > the ldp's guide
> > > > > isn't very good; its been on my todo list to
> get
> > >
> > > it
> > >
> > > > > updated for ages -
> > > > > as you can see, i've taken over :P)
> > > > >
> > > > > > 2. how to use it(this part have to watch
> out
> > >
> > > on
> > >
> > > > > > specific details which too often missed).
> > > > >
> > > > > Taking the samba example - if you're a
> newbie,
> > > > > samba-swat or webmin.
> > > > > (All security folk frowning now, stop!)
> > > > >
> > > > > Samba 3 by Example, by John Terpstra is an
> > >
> > > excellent
> > >
> > > > > book
> > > > >
> > > > > > 3. the code, and what is in the code, how
> the
> > > > > > application is designed, coded, compiled
> and
> > > > >
> > > > > released.
> > > > >
> > > > > Haha, have fun with this. Its not easy
> reading
> > > > > production code and
> > > > > documenting it
> > > > >
> > > > > > I hv some notes i made along the way in
> text
> > > > >
> > > > > files,
> > > > >
> > > > > > while working on C/C++, php, perl, java,
> > >
> > > mysql,
> > >
> > > > > oracle
> > > > >
> > > > > > 9i on both linux and windows(not much
> really).
> > > > >
> > > > > which i
> > > > >
> > > > > > can convert to simple HTML, with resources
> i
> > > > >
> > > > > collected
> > > > >
> > > > > > along the way. And wanted it to be review
> and
> > > > >
> > > > > share.
> > > > >
> > > > > > and help those who really tak tau to crawl
> > >
> > > inches,
> > >
> > > > > b4
> > > > >
> > > > > > they run.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, start a blog, or something with an RSS
> feed,
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > > > I'll gladly add you
> > > > > to Planet MYOSS - http://myoss.bytebot.net/
> > > > >
> > > > > > last but not least, get it somewhere
> > >
> > > noticable.
> > >
> > > > > too
> > > > >
> > > > > > often people point to linux as linux.org..
> > >
> > > darn!
> > >
> > > > > I'm under the impression that this isn't
> Linux
> > > > > specific - Khai himself
> > > > > will make it FreeBSD specific
> > > > >
> > > > > And don't start another resource when
> there's
> > >
> > > others
> > >
> > > > > out there. Like in
> > > > > the Fedora example, there's already a useful
> > >
> > > Fedora
> > >
> > > > > FAQ (albeit
> > > > > unofficial currently) at
> http://fedorafaq.org/ -
> > > > > why, oh why, did
> > > > > tux2furious feel the itch to go start an
> > >
> > > inferior
> > >
> > > > > Fedora Guide -
> > > > > http://fedoraguide.org/ ? Might as well
> > >
> > > contribute
> > >
> > > > > to the Fedora FAQ and
> > > > > standardise on a resource [1]
> > > > >
> > > > > > Nothing is perfect, if anyone knows such
> and
> > > > > > undertaking is underway, please please
> please
> > >
> > > tell
> > >
> > > > > me,
> > > > >
> > > > > > so i dun need to duplicate this work.
> > > > >
> > > > > As a famous Mr. Hung would say, "I��e
> > >
> > > already gave
> > >
> > > > > my best!" :)
> > > > >
> > > > > P/S: tux2furious, I'm not singling you out
> dude;
> > > > > just so happens that
> > > > > comments on sites like osnews, have been
> pretty
> > > > > bashful; I took a look
> > > > > at the guide myself when writing the last
> Fedora
> > > > > News Updates... Good on
> > > > > the resource, the fact that you're learning
> and
> > > > > progressing is
> > > > > excellent, continue doing so, but learning
> the
> > > > > "correct" way (or in this
> > > > > case, "The Fedora Way") will be fairly
> important
> > > > > too...
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] - Like the OpenOffice.org project. I am
> the
> > > > > current maintainer for
> > > > > the well-visited OOo uFAQ. We are merging
> all
> > >
> > > the
> > >
> > > > > FAQs and
> > > > > documentations into a grand knowledgebase,
> and
> > >
> > > I'm
> > >
> > > > > soon going to stop
> > > > > maintaing it (I finally realised, I'm more a
> > >
> > > coder,
> > >
> > > > > than an end-user
> > > > > lover...), in lieu of making a one-stop
> resource
> > > > > centre
> > > > >
> > > > > If you're going forward with this idea, make
> > >
> > > sure
> > >
> > > > > its a one-stop
> > > > > resource centre. Take Microsoft for example.
> No
> > >
> > > one
> > >
> > > > > really needs to
> > > > > Google for information - just visit their
> > >
> > > knowledge
> > >
> > > > > base. The open
> > > > > source world needs a workable knowledge base
> > >
> > > that
> > >
> > > > > can stand the test of
> > > > > time, and of course, will not get outdated
> > > > > --
> > > > > Colin Charles, byte@aeon.com.my
> > > > > http://www.bytebot.net/
> >
> >
>
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