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Re: [ossig] Open source community needs a haircut and to dress forsuccess?Should I loose my Kurtas (long asian shirts), Jeans and Sandals

Molly Cheah wrote:

Hi Molly,

>>> Interesting to know criticism=discredit. Please quote what I had 
>>> actually said that had been intepreted as discrediting the "work of 
>>> the community". Yes, I have mentioned to "friends" at coffee breaks 
>>> that I find the local community had not met the expectations users 
>>> like myself and that there is a "disconnection" between the community 
>>> and other stakeholders.
>> As a member of the "local" community, I take to that statement in 
>> offense.
> Sorry you took offence. That's my views. My area of interest is 
> healthcare. That disconnection statement was made at a workshop session 
> in relation to training. It probably got repeated by the 15-20 people in 
> the room attending the workshop.

Can you please expand on this disconnection statement a little further, 
for those of us that weren't there? Otherwise it just sounds like hearsay

BTW, I was hoping you'd also say that your area of interest was "open 
source healthcare", after all, you *are* part of the community... While 
all of us might not have a similar interest, isn't it the OSS that binds us?

>> I believe I have helped users, like yourself, make a switch to open 
>> source, and have a more comfortable life. I've hacked on 
>> OpenOffice.org in the past. I hack on Fedora Core in the present. I 
>> work on MySQL on a daily basis (yes, the M in LAMP).
> Thanks for coming over to help the industrial training students on 
> attachment learn open office. I was not present then, was I?

I wasn't referring to your industrial training students. I'm referring 
to the fact that I as a member of the local open source community have 
contributed time and effort to some open source projects, that you as a 
user benefit from, most likely. Even if you don't use MySQL or Fedora, 
there's a high chance that you use OpenOffice.org

This was in response to your statement, where you said: "I find the 
local community had not met the expectations users like myself ". If its 
not helping to write the software that you use, what more can we the 
local open source community do for you?

(yes, its been stated that the community doesn't exist to fulfill your 
expectations in another posting, but I'm a nice guy, and being nice I 
naturally have this urge to want to please people, and am curious to 
know how we can help)

>> I believe to some degree, you use some of the above for your daily 
>> work. Have I not met your expectations as a user, and what 
>> "disconnection" is it that you talk about?
> The context I was referring to when I use the word "disconnection" was 
> in the training/capacity building workshop at the 7th Asian OSS. We were 
> discussing the current weaknesses and the roles of different people and 
> organisation in training/capacity building.

Are there minuted meeting minutes? Notes? Etc.?

You feel the disconnect lying in the fact that we, the local OSS 
community don't help in training our users? Which in turn helps build 

>> Now, the only thing I can think about you needing more help from the 
>> community, to make there be less of a "disconnection" is help with 
>> your open source software, PrimaCare, for e-clinic management. This 
>> won an MNCC award for excellence in ICT, back in 2004. On the awards 
>> page, its described as:
>>     "PCDOM PrimaCare has a commendable level of sophistication with 
>> screens for clinic management, patient care, financial management, 
>> pharmacy management, billings, scheduling and resource library. The 
>> software has been released for use to 50 doctors. The software also 
>> has the potential for further development which certainly will 
>> encourage wider usage especially if doctors become more ICT-savvy."
> In case you would like to know,we did a major re-engineering on 
> PrimaCare last year. PrimaCare is still for doctors only and they get 
> the 4 freedoms when we deploy to them.

How can it be open source, and be for doctors only? By the Open Source 
Definition (http://opensource.org/docs/definition.php), you are 
violating Article 5, and possibly Article 6.

Even the free software definition 
(http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) mentions that I (or anyone) 
should be able to access the source, no matter where I am ("anyone 

>> You won that in the Open Source Software category. I then browsed your 
>> website to find no form of course code, whatsoever (there's a demo 
>> though, kudos for it). Was the source for PrimaCare available 2 years 
>> ago when you won the /Open Source Software/ ICT Excellence award, and 
>> now removed?
> Source codes were given to users only and they can do whatever they like 
> with it. They were never made available for free downloads. They were 
> made available freely to doctors only. Based on what we tell them, they 
> said we qualified. In fact we did not even apply on our own accord for 
> the award, we were asked to apply because there were people who knew we 
> had a good project.

How did people know you had a good project if they couldn't try or see 
the source code? I tried the demo, and I liked the interface - simple. 
Now as a user, I'd like to see the source - can I, without being a 
doctor? (remember, the non-discrimination clause)

>> This clearly defeats what the OSI says in its definition of open 
>> source. I'd like to see if I can help, and I'm sure budding MYOSSers 
>> (aka the local community) will too. But there's one outstanding 
>> question...
> I didn't even know OSI exit when I worked on PrimaCare and our 
> objectives for PrimaCare was not meeting the objectives of OSI. Sorry 
> about that. We are working with students at one of the universities, but 
> making arrangements with more universities.

Well if you didn't know the OSI existed (its definition has existed 
since 1998, afaik, when Eric Raymond was on the board and generally 
famous), I'm sure you knew the Free Software Foundation existed. They 
are after all the people that came up with the four freedoms that you 
quoted earlier

>>  Where's the source, Molly?
> The source codes were given to the doctors who received PrimaCare, they 
> had the liberty to modify the codes, and do what they like with it, 
> including the right to give it to anyone. I believe the doctors would 
> only give to other doctors and that's their right. Do I get the 4 
> freedoms right Colin? I was taught that myself by open source gurus. We 
> believe that we can exercise our freedom to give to whoever we choose 
> too. I know that's the crux of unhappiness among some people.... Sorry 
> about that. It's not purely my decision.

I guess your open source gurus taught you wrong. I've provided links 
above to enhance your knowledge. I hope that helps.

Remember, if you call something open source, it should be licensed 
appropriately, and the source code should be available. I believe having 
an online demo of open source software, constitutes as use, and hence I 
equate to being a "doctor" in the context. But IANAL, so best to contact 
your lawyers

Also, I took a little gander of your EULA. Article 4 is in violation of 
the software being free. So is Article 7 - if (hypothetically) your 
source was available at version 1.1, and you revoked it being free in 
version 2, you can't ask for the previous version to stop being used - 
that will always be available and someone can fork your code

Time to make the 2006 Winner of the MNCC Open Source Excellence in ICT 
awards get RM10,000 I guess :-)

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