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Re: [ossig] Open source community needs a haircut and to dress forsuccess?Should I loose my Kurtas (long asian shirts), Jeans and Sandals

Looks like I have to learn all over again. Tell me which guru should I 
depend on this time? Totally confusing, this open source thingy isn't 
it? Free as in freedom and not as in beer, but I have to freely allow 
everyone to download because thay can equate to be doctors. 
Non-discriminatory and I lose my freedom to whom I chose to give my 
application to.
....having an online demo of open source software, constitutes as use, 
and hence I equate to being a "doctor" in the context..... Wow...Now you 
are really frightening the doctors into using open source products. Now 
I'm beginning to understand why even the Govt is having second thoughts 
because whatever they develop they have to make them available to you so 
that you can fork it etc etc.....

Sorry ran out of my time allocation for attending to such discussions as 
this discussion can became really viral... Have an enjoyable weekend.
Colin Charles wrote:

> Molly Cheah wrote:
> Hi Molly,
>>>> Interesting to know criticism=discredit. Please quote what I had 
>>>> actually said that had been intepreted as discrediting the "work of 
>>>> the community". Yes, I have mentioned to "friends" at coffee breaks 
>>>> that I find the local community had not met the expectations users 
>>>> like myself and that there is a "disconnection" between the 
>>>> community and other stakeholders.
>>> As a member of the "local" community, I take to that statement in 
>>> offense.
>> Sorry you took offence. That's my views. My area of interest is 
>> healthcare. That disconnection statement was made at a workshop 
>> session in relation to training. It probably got repeated by the 
>> 15-20 people in the room attending the workshop.
> Can you please expand on this disconnection statement a little 
> further, for those of us that weren't there? Otherwise it just sounds 
> like hearsay
> BTW, I was hoping you'd also say that your area of interest was "open 
> source healthcare", after all, you *are* part of the community... 
> While all of us might not have a similar interest, isn't it the OSS 
> that binds us?
>>> I believe I have helped users, like yourself, make a switch to open 
>>> source, and have a more comfortable life. I've hacked on 
>>> OpenOffice.org in the past. I hack on Fedora Core in the present. I 
>>> work on MySQL on a daily basis (yes, the M in LAMP).
>> Thanks for coming over to help the industrial training students on 
>> attachment learn open office. I was not present then, was I?
> I wasn't referring to your industrial training students. I'm referring 
> to the fact that I as a member of the local open source community have 
> contributed time and effort to some open source projects, that you as 
> a user benefit from, most likely. Even if you don't use MySQL or 
> Fedora, there's a high chance that you use OpenOffice.org
> This was in response to your statement, where you said: "I find the 
> local community had not met the expectations users like myself ". If 
> its not helping to write the software that you use, what more can we 
> the local open source community do for you?
> (yes, its been stated that the community doesn't exist to fulfill your 
> expectations in another posting, but I'm a nice guy, and being nice I 
> naturally have this urge to want to please people, and am curious to 
> know how we can help)
>>> I believe to some degree, you use some of the above for your daily 
>>> work. Have I not met your expectations as a user, and what 
>>> "disconnection" is it that you talk about?
>> The context I was referring to when I use the word "disconnection" 
>> was in the training/capacity building workshop at the 7th Asian OSS. 
>> We were discussing the current weaknesses and the roles of different 
>> people and organisation in training/capacity building.
> Are there minuted meeting minutes? Notes? Etc.?
> You feel the disconnect lying in the fact that we, the local OSS 
> community don't help in training our users? Which in turn helps build 
> capacity?
>>> Now, the only thing I can think about you needing more help from the 
>>> community, to make there be less of a "disconnection" is help with 
>>> your open source software, PrimaCare, for e-clinic management. This 
>>> won an MNCC award for excellence in ICT, back in 2004. On the awards 
>>> page, its described as:
>>>     "PCDOM PrimaCare has a commendable level of sophistication with 
>>> screens for clinic management, patient care, financial management, 
>>> pharmacy management, billings, scheduling and resource library. The 
>>> software has been released for use to 50 doctors. The software also 
>>> has the potential for further development which certainly will 
>>> encourage wider usage especially if doctors become more ICT-savvy."
>> In case you would like to know,we did a major re-engineering on 
>> PrimaCare last year. PrimaCare is still for doctors only and they get 
>> the 4 freedoms when we deploy to them.
> How can it be open source, and be for doctors only? By the Open Source 
> Definition (http://opensource.org/docs/definition.php), you are 
> violating Article 5, and possibly Article 6.
> Even the free software definition 
> (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) mentions that I (or 
> anyone) should be able to access the source, no matter where I am 
> ("anyone anywhere").
>>> You won that in the Open Source Software category. I then browsed 
>>> your website to find no form of course code, whatsoever (there's a 
>>> demo though, kudos for it). Was the source for PrimaCare available 2 
>>> years ago when you won the /Open Source Software/ ICT Excellence 
>>> award, and now removed?
>> Source codes were given to users only and they can do whatever they 
>> like with it. They were never made available for free downloads. They 
>> were made available freely to doctors only. Based on what we tell 
>> them, they said we qualified. In fact we did not even apply on our 
>> own accord for the award, we were asked to apply because there were 
>> people who knew we had a good project.
> How did people know you had a good project if they couldn't try or see 
> the source code? I tried the demo, and I liked the interface - simple. 
> Now as a user, I'd like to see the source - can I, without being a 
> doctor? (remember, the non-discrimination clause)
>>> This clearly defeats what the OSI says in its definition of open 
>>> source. I'd like to see if I can help, and I'm sure budding MYOSSers 
>>> (aka the local community) will too. But there's one outstanding 
>>> question...
>> I didn't even know OSI exit when I worked on PrimaCare and our 
>> objectives for PrimaCare was not meeting the objectives of OSI. Sorry 
>> about that. We are working with students at one of the universities, 
>> but making arrangements with more universities.
> Well if you didn't know the OSI existed (its definition has existed 
> since 1998, afaik, when Eric Raymond was on the board and generally 
> famous), I'm sure you knew the Free Software Foundation existed. They 
> are after all the people that came up with the four freedoms that you 
> quoted earlier
>>>  Where's the source, Molly?
>> The source codes were given to the doctors who received PrimaCare, 
>> they had the liberty to modify the codes, and do what they like with 
>> it, including the right to give it to anyone. I believe the doctors 
>> would only give to other doctors and that's their right. Do I get the 
>> 4 freedoms right Colin? I was taught that myself by open source 
>> gurus. We believe that we can exercise our freedom to give to whoever 
>> we choose too. I know that's the crux of unhappiness among some 
>> people.... Sorry about that. It's not purely my decision.
> I guess your open source gurus taught you wrong. I've provided links 
> above to enhance your knowledge. I hope that helps.
> Remember, if you call something open source, it should be licensed 
> appropriately, and the source code should be available. I believe 
> having an online demo of open source software, constitutes as use, and 
> hence I equate to being a "doctor" in the context. But IANAL, so best 
> to contact your lawyers
> Also, I took a little gander of your EULA. Article 4 is in violation 
> of the software being free. So is Article 7 - if (hypothetically) your 
> source was available at version 1.1, and you revoked it being free in 
> version 2, you can't ask for the previous version to stop being used - 
> that will always be available and someone can fork your code
> Time to make the 2006 Winner of the MNCC Open Source Excellence in ICT 
> awards get RM10,000 I guess :-)
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