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Re: [ossig] JSP v PHP for Biz Intelligence Application

On 12 Jul 2006, at 3:03 PM, Nur Hussein wrote:
> language can lead to serious consequences. But not having a design  
> at all like PHP, that does not make me comfortable.

Where do you get the idea that PHP has no design at all? After 5  
versions and 10 years of history, can you really believe it has no  
design at all?

It may have started out with a very rudimentary design, but it has  
evolved over the years, like all software does. Are you going to  
dismiss all software because it did not have a thick tome for  
requirements/specifications/design before coding started on day 1?  
Are you going to claim all software that isn't created by the classic  
waterfall process as crap?

This isn't to say that PHP has a _good_ design today, but it would  
seem rather wrong to claim it does not have design.

> I get what you're implying. But then again nobody writes web apps  
> in C, for a good reason. For me, PHP being a language developed in  
> "modern times" for applications that are going to be exposed to the  
> big bad intarw3b needs to be:
> 1) Easy to write secure code
> 2) Very high-level

The first one is actually quite easy if you know what you are doing,  
even in PHP. There are a few things that a good software developer  
would look at and run screaming for the hills in terror (e.g.  
register globals) but using that would be primarily the fault of the  
programmer, not the language. Yeah, maybe it was a mistake to have  
register_globals on initially but that has been fixed since. The rest  
of the language isn't that easy to write insecure code in. Do you  
have any specifics versus other "web-enabled" languages?

The PHP applications that exist today are not so much a problem of  
bad language design as a product of bad programmers. People can write  
bad code anywhere. If I go by some of the code I've seen in  
production, I would think Java wasn't an object oriented language :)

> Once you throw in "enterprise-software" requirements into the mix,  
> you also need it to be
> 3) Maintainable
> 4) Scalable
> PHP succeeds at 2, and fails at 1. And it's *too* easy to write  
> code that fails at 3 too. 4 I won't comment on.

What specifically does PHP have in it that causes it to fail at  
maintainability? Even in python, one of the cleanest languages I've  
had the joy of working on, I've had bad developers produce  
unmaintainable, unreadable code. Would love to hear the exact problem  
with PHP specific syntax or language features?

We know PHP scales to handle some fairly high traffic sites, so in my  
mind, PHP bats 4 out of 4 so far in the criteria listed.

> So PHP doesn't appeal to me at all. Sorry.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and I must admit PHP doesn't  
appeal to me either. But I'd like to hear specifics, rather than  
blanket statements that seem to run strongly counter to my experience  
with the language.


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